It’s the four-year anniversary of the Mind Virus Podcast. Join Bobby and Jordan as they reminisce on things in general and ruminate on how certain perspectives become our reality.
Some people like to listen to us faster… (We sound smarter.):Change playback speed real time: 1x – 1.25x – 1.5x – 1.75x – 2x
Referenced in the Podcast
- Ironic Lyrics
- I’m on Fire Lyrics
- Bad Moon Rising Lyrics
- Whip it Lyrics
- Howard the Duck Movie
- Roger Rabbit Movie
- Dragon Age: the Veilguard Video Game
- LDS Freedom Forum (A Forum)
- Michelle Stone Podcast
- Rob Fotheringham Youtuber
- Brian Hales Apologist Historian
- Cultural Husbandry on X List of Govt / Media Cartel Lies (first tweet of many)
- Garand Thumb Firearms Youtuber (Video on CEO shooter)
- Edmunds Anti-Polygamy Act 1882
- Edmunds Tucker Act 1887
Congrats on 4 years guys!
Yippee! Yay I won!!!!! Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!Yippee!
LOL!!
Appropriate degree of excitement here. A solid win worthy of exclamation and adulation.
I’m following ordered and writing to congratulate you for your 4 year anniversary. I have enjoyed listening all this time.
And Joseph Smith wasn’t a polygamist 🙂
The age consent is 16-17 in almost all states, so I guess those 70s and 80s songs aren’t actually statutory?
Many of our grandparents were getting married younger than that, so only very recently has it been considered weird by some. Of course, kids are a bit less mentally mature today than back then, too
In Dragon Age they made it an HR course for the players.
Speaking of the trope doing anything to impress a girl because of love, I have a male cousin who was smitted by a lesbian so he decided to transition, and now the lesbian likes him. What a convoluted mess of nonsense.
I think I read that the alleged shooter’s is family was more wealthy than the United Healthcare CEO he supposedly shot.
Jared Goff Detroit Lions.
Peyton Manning’s seven touchdowns in a game is the record. I don’t think anyone has done eight.
So, now we’re relegating Abraham (top 3 or 5 most important people ever) to just being a legend? That’s wild. He had two different covenant peoples through two different women, simultaneously.
Elk steaks are probably my second favorite.
I’m glad to get more gospel and Joseph Smith discussions. Those are my favorite episodes. I’ll be looking forward to next week’s.
Happy 4th anniversary! Hope you guys didn’t forget to exchange gifts to each other.
That wasn’t a knock on Abraham or the idea that he was a real person. He is legendary for sure though… it has to do with perception/perspective right? Legend doesn’t mean it’s not real. The question really in my mind is what parts of the story are real. (if any) Abraham is real. The Abrahamic covenant is real.
Here’s the American Heritage definition of legend:
Have you read Nibley 3rd chapter of the book Enoch the Prophet? … Starts like this:
This doesn’t make Adam any less real. The Egyptians called him Atum. The PGP says interesting things about what the name means. (Moses 1:34)
Our take on language, history, legend is all colored by our lived experience, bias and perspective. Getting down to what is real is a serious endeavor… in my opinion.
Hey, you guys said you wanted more heat 🙂
But yes, I largely agree with you.
The Abrahamic covenantS are real, and like I said, he had 2 of them, through different sons, while in a polygamous relationship, as the legend goes (of one is definitely real, why not the other covenant people?).
Don’t get me wrong. This is great discussion. Glad you’re bringing it. I’m just clarifying my point.
To call Abraham and Hagar’s relationship polygamous implies a marriage took place. That’s not what happened. Hagar was a surrogate mother.
But let’s just pretend that it was a marriage, and also consider the other polygamous unions in the old testament. They are all horrible experiences for everyone involved. They’re examples of what to avoid.
Whisker, you’re using semantics. Multiple partners = polygamy. Also, God instructed it and blessed more than one bloodline with a covenant each, plus mucho blessings to Abraham, so much that he was blessed that Jesus would come of his lineage.
We can’t say that specific example should have been avoided. I get it. You don’t want polygamy to have ever been a thing, but it was, in fact, a thing God desired, for a time, for some, at the very least.
And Grok is now free for everyone. Just saw an ad on X just now.
It won’t let me reply on your last comment Publius so I’m starting a new comment here.
I’m using the dictionary definition of polygamy. From the 1828 Webster’s dictionary:
POLYG’AMY, noun [Gr. many, and marriage.] A plurality of wives or husbands at the same time; or the having of such plurality. When a man has more wives than one, or a woman more husbands than one, at the same time, the offender is punishable for polygamy.
Can you please provide the exact scriptural references where God instructed polygamy? Or that He has ever “desired” it?
Did Abraham’s blessings come as a result of the surrogacy? Could Abraham have his covenant without the surrogacy?
What is Ishmael’s covenant? I’m aware that he was blessed that he would be fruitful, but anyone who procreated from that time would have their seed spread all throughout the earth by now. The covenant line went through Isaac.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/ishmael-son-of-abraham?lang=eng
I think you had to have replied to Jordan’s comment, that’s what I had to do to reply to your last comment.
Sex with multiple women at the same time. Call it whatever you want. Polygamy, worse than polygamy, or whatever. Doesn’t matter. It’s semantics at that point. God blessed him AND all the different people’s through the different women that he was sleeping with at the same time period (there were Sarah and Hagar plus unnamed concubines [Gen 25:6] and later/same time Keturah). He was one of the great ones before the world and then was one of the greatest in this world. His multiple women bedding didn’t curse him. God certainly wasn’t pissed, didn’t rebuke, or anything of the sort. The opposite, in fact. He even had personal visits from Jesus afterwards.
God sent an angel and told Hagar to return, plus a covenant for her child. And God was with them when Sarah threw them out when Isaac was born.
The covenant is Abraham’s, renewed with Isaac and again with Jacob. He also had another covenant line through Ishmael, and all of his seed, as he is constantly told. As it says in General 22:18, all nations of the Earth will be blessed through his seed from all his children, not just Isaac from Sarah.
Abraham’s brother, Nahor, had multiple women. No bad word about that either.
There’s the potential that the Jews (who had a lot longer to modify the narrative of what we now call the Old Testament [and other works] than the early LDS saints have had to modify stuff) wanted to support their polygamy by attributing it to Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon etc. This fits a certain pattern, if that is in fact what BY and the other early saints did post Joseph to justify their polygamy (i.e. they attributed the practice to Joseph and wrote it into their journals/history a generation after his death.) I think Dr. Margaret Barker’s work is really helpful on the subject of the potential modifications that the Jews made to the ancient Hebrew religion. (Jacob 2 seems to be evidence of potential justification for the practice in the BofM but again context, perspective… clearly by 600 BC the Jews had gone apostate and the narratives the Nephites carried with them were effected. Maybe that discussion in Jacob 2 can also be seen with different eyes though.) Nonetheless, whether we can get the whole story or not, God seems perfectly willing to forgive if we are willing to repent. (i.e. to change and expand our minds) … Taken in sequence, the question posed to the brother of Jared is quite striking: “And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?” Ether 3:11 … this after all he had already been through.
Whisker, I never claimed it was commanded. But it’s far weaker to say that Abraham wasn’t blessed in his having multiple women due to timing, especially since the whole time (before, during and after these relationships) Abraham is told that his seed will be numberless and they ALL will be blessed, covenant people.
Before entering polygamy, Abraham is promised in Gen 12:2 “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
It sure seems that God knew and expected Abraham to have children from different women to ensure the covenant that ALL peoples would be blessed of his seed would come to pass.
________________
Jordan, yes, of course they were doctored, but their main motive is almost certainly to make the Old Testament books less Christian, and then to add things to ensure their made-up authority over the people (maybe adding in stories like the woman caught in adultery).
To make academic theories, we also need motive. Maybe Margaret Baker has some motive in her work as to why the Jews in charge would want to make the great prophets as polygamists.
Jacob 2 gives an exemption, and Abraham’s story fits that exemption to a T; to make a great number of people; all peoples that are influenced through Abraham for God’s purpose.
From all the information I have come in contact with, I don’t believe Joseph was having sexual relations with the women or men he was sealed to, which leads me to believe that his sealings meant something different than the Brigham narrative. I never read Hales work on it myself, but I did hear that he gathered all of the records we have from Joseph, and pointed out that Joseph never actually advocated for it, and on the contrary preached against it, and excommunicated people for practicing it.
But that doesn’t inform us about the examples of polygamy we have with Abraham. I agree with Whisker that the motivation for Abraham and Hagar to come together was in order for Abraham to have a child because Sarah had been barren for a long time and didn’t believe she would be able to fulfill the promise Abraham was given about being a Father of many nations. But even under that circumstance Ishmael was blessed with a form of Priesthood. Even Keturah (who Abraham married after Sarah died) and Abraham’s son, Midian had priesthood. Moses got his priesthood from Jethro, who was a Midianite, but did not have the birthright. Isaac had the birthright, who came from Sarah and Abraham’s union. Isaac possessed the birthright and had Jacob, who also had multiple wives and children with those wives, including Judah, who was a descendant of Leah and also the lineage of David, who also practiced polygamy and Christ came through. So clearly these men and women were blessed (even though they went through hell) and at least some of the situations were approved by God. That does not mean that the act of Polygamy is what brought on the blessings, but it does imply that the polygamy did not prevent the blessings.
There are volumes and volumes of talks, books, and stories that address the topic. But I think the answers of what God was doing with those individuals will come from God. No amount of research will give me the answers I am looking for. But I have found that as I continue to follow Christ, more is unveiled. So, my conclusion is, if you would like to know the things of God, follow Christ and you will be put on a course that will bring you to the truth of all things. And if there are blessings to be had through marriage covenants, they will not be realized until both members of the covenant have been tried, tested, and demonstrate that they will be vigilant in seeking and following the laws and directions they are given. I have also noticed more is given the further we get down that path.
I’ll start by admitting I was wrong about there being no marriage between Abraham and Hagar. I decided to stop going off memory and read through it last night and noticed there was a mention of marriage before conception. So, that was polygamy in the dictionary sense, but in my mind the intent was still just for surrogacy.
But Publius, can you please provide the exact scriptural references where God instructed polygamy? Or that He has ever “desired” it? Stating that in Abraham’s case that it happened without a rebuke is a weak argument. Hagar was also a bondwoman. So shall we have bondwomen since Abraham had one? We don’t know all that was said and not written down. Abram got the covenant and then had to circumcise himself and Ishmael when he was 13 so there was a waiting period before the covenant happened. The Hagar incident happened when he was Abram, before his covenant, and Keturah came after Sarah died, which is in keeping with the original D&C declaration on marriage, which used to be 101, if I remember correctly, which the Brighamites deleted when they inserted the doctored 132.
To speak to Jordan’s point about the possibility of the scriptures being doctored, I also wonder if there is an allegory built in to this story. We like to see everything literal, but it may not be so with this story. Refer to the Nibley quote Jordan shared above. Melchizedek visits Abram and tells him of the captivity of his descendents to Egypt. Then it goes into the story with Hagar, this Egyptian bondwoman who then becomes the mother of Ishmael. I wondered about some types of shadows being implied in the story.
Publius, you claim that you never claimed it was commanded. However, you claimed “God instructed it” and that “it was, in fact, a thing God desired.” I don’t see any scriptures giving a command for it, or revealing in any way that God desired it.
I think you last comment laid out your position more clearly. I can see why you believe that. The big hole in the argument though is the lack of instruction/commandment from God. I can see that God allowed for it in Abram’s case. He made allowances for the lost 116 pages as well. That’s not an endorsement of losing pages of scripture.
Because there’s a lack of instruction outlined in the scriptures, that leaves the supposed exception in Jacob 2 with no support. If God allows (or even “desires” it) sometimes, then where are examples of this looking elsewhere in scripture where He commands polygamy? We have clear instructions from God to kill with the example of Laban and also the commandment mentioned in the Book of Mormon (or my new preferred version, the Covenant of Christ) for the people to defend themselves to the point of bloodshed, but no other example of commandments to engage in polygamy. So though the supposed exception is emphasized in the versification and the punctuation in the Brighamite version of the Book of Mormon, it doesn’t necessarily need to be read that way. When read in context, I don’t believe Jacob was providing an exception here. It flies in the face of the rest of the sermon.
This has been a fun dig into the subject. I typically don’t debate it, but only think about it. Thanks for engaging with me on this subject.
Making a covenant that Abraham would be super blessed and that all of Earth, through his posterity, via polygamy, will be blessed is an endorsement. The biggest endorsement, in fact.
The way I see it, a lack of record of a commandment from those times, isn’t evidence that there was no commandment, either.
I think there is evidence that Joseph did receive revelation with several witnesses who refer to that revelation and date. I’ll have to find what those were.
Yes, thanks for the engagement. I wasn’t as precise with my language (or recollection) as I try to hold myself to.
Wow, fun reading! …and I thought all the comments (21 when I got here) were the tens of listeners giving their milestone congrats to this “legend” of a podcast/show. Leave it to good ‘ol polygamy to spark the comment section! It’s almost as though all paths lead to polygamy.
To Jordan and Bobby, I say, good on ya mates! No small feat, for sure! Thanks for all the good times! …and the dark and glum ones.
It’s refreshing to see people respectfully sharing perspectives on a controversial and hushed topic. It’s good to question and look for answers. I feel if someone is really looking for the truth they have to give themselves permission to question the narrative they have been given, regardless of other people’s opinions or feelings around the topic. If they don’t want to participate in it, that’s fine, but preventing others is unhealthy. And just because someone openly investigates a topic does not mean they are advocating for or pursuing it, rather trying to understand and put things in the proper context. The pursuit of truth should not be threatening, on the contrary, it should be encouraged. Coming to false conclusions, whether they are popular or not, should be a bigger concern. I think a big reason why mischief arises when we investigate delicate subjects is due to a lack of patience to wait for ALL of the pieces of the puzzle before coming to a conclusion and saying it fits. It’s important not to accept or act on delicate ideas until receiving the truth of the matter. And even with that, waiting for guidance from Christ on how to proceed. I feel it’s imperative for each individual to consciously evaluate the beliefs they accept and then notice the other pieces of reality you base off of that belief, they are all interconnected. It’s an interesting exercise to participate in.
It’s been my experience that it can take decades to get pieces and parts of the answers I have prayed for. But I am unwilling to fill in the unknown variables with a narrative I prefer or casually think it fits. The concept reminds me of the game Sudoku, sometimes it seems as if a variable fits, and so in order to complete the puzzle there is a temptation to assume that since you know that it’s not some specific numbers, and this one could fit, then you can fill in the blanks in order to move forward with completing the puzzle. But if you put the wrong data in the cell, the rest of the puzzle gets corrupted by that erroneous choice. But if instead you scale back and look on the whole puzzle, searching for more clues on any of the pieces, you will be able to find you are now more informed on the rest of the individual pieces and the puzzle as a whole, and things will start to fall into place.